Forum open to the public

[NightHawk]

This topic was spilt from another topic on the forum.
In the original topic, I posted a message to say a photo on my website (not on the forum) was misused by another website.
This prompted concerns over the permissions given to Guests on this forum.

I'm actually not surprised about this George, but it doesn't make the situation any easier.

As you will recall, I reported to you several weeks ago that there were a lot of our topics being printed by 'Guests' to the Forum.  Unusual activity in itself.

The problem has arisen, of course, by allowing 'Guests' to have access to our Forum, and this appears to be one of the results.

In the first instance I would email the web site concerned and ask them to remove the photo of your Camellia.

It's actually fortunate that you were able to track down this particular occurrence of this misuse of one of your photos.  How many others are out there being used illegally? Not only yours George, but our other members too.

Allowing 'public' access has its good and bad points attached to it.  This is one of the bad ones.

I've continued to monitor this activity on the Forum and it is occurring numerous times every day.  And it's not all by the same IP Address, so our photos are being downloaded and the topics printed out which contains the information about our particular flowers.

We may need to review this situation of public access.

Laurie.

[bossgard]

I had hoped in opening the Forum to others (guests), that it might increase their interest in IG Software, resulting in an increase in its usage (sales).

But, I can't stand thieves! And this is thievery at its worst!

If you are taking a vote, I would say 'close it down', and keep it for users of the IG Software only, unless they are particularly invited either by George or Laurie?

- Toby

[NightHawk]

Thank you for your input there Toby, it's much appreciated.

The ultimate decision to close the Forum to Guests lies with George of course, but I think it would help to hear from our other members too.

I feared this right from the start, but like you Toby, I was thinking of the benefits to George from opening the Forum to a wider audience.  This inevitably attracts the 'undesirables' who seek to make a profit from other people's work.  The information we provide in photos and plant knowledge could give someone enough information to actually write a book on the subject and potentially make a lot of money from it.  Not to mention all the other ways profit can be gained from the illegal use of our photos.

Putting copyright notices on our photos wouldn't stop this illegal activity either.  With graphics programs, and a little knowledge, the copyright notice can be taken out, so it would serve no other purpose than to tell people it's a copyrighted photo, but that would be ignored anyway.  A 'Breach of copyright' claim is too expensive to pursue through legal channels, which is what the 'thieves' rely on, so it's just not worth the hassle.

So let's hear from as many of our members as possible to help give George an informed decision.

Laurie.

[ideasguy]

That particular photo is freely available to Flower Genie users.
Flower Genie users get to that page when they use the "Get Plants" option.
I dont think it is linked from the forum.

[ideasguy]

I tried to report this infringement.
Traced its source to google.
To report an infringement, I found my way here:
http://www.google.com/support/blogger/bin/request.py?hl=en&contact_type=blogger_dmca_infringment

On that page, I didnt like the look of this:

Infringement Notification for Blogger
To file a notice of infringement with us, you must submit the form provided below. Please note that you will be liable for damages (including costs and attorneys' fees) if you materially misrepresent that a product or activity is infringing your copyrights. Indeed, in a recent case (please see http://www.onlinepolicy.org/action/legpolicy/opg_v_diebold/ for more information), a company that sent an infringement notification seeking removal of online materials that were protected by the fair use doctrine was ordered to pay such costs and attorneys fees. The company agreed to pay over $100,000. Accordingly, if you are not sure whether material available online infringes your copyright, we suggest that you first contact an attorney.

I took another option. I renamed the photo. Its now a bad link on that blog.

I used to like and trust Google.

[newplantguy]

Hi All,
I'm afraid I feared this would happen from the start, in my line of work we are used to this happening with plants and photos.
We need to take this out of the use by guest only for ig pro users as before.
I will need to restrict my use of this forum until this happens, so please George go back as before, I quite certain that you will get very few leads only grief.
Paul.

[ideasguy]

To reiterate my earlier comment:

That particular photo is freely available to Flower Genie users.
Flower Genie users get to that page when they use the "Get Plants" option.
I don't think it is linked from the forum.

I'm dismayed that this has been taken as an indication of a problem caused by the forum being open to the public.

Photos on the internet are being exploited more and more daily. Some well known sites (no names - you know who they are) allow you to upload your photos onto their site. Once on their server, willingly "contributed" by users, the small print allows the host to do pretty much as they please with your photos - thats why they encourage you to upload large images, as they can be used by professional publishers.
They can be freely downloaded by anyone on the internet, and the hosts also run a "service" providing the visitors hard copy prints of your photos. They are public domain - you allow them to make a profit from what was once your property.
The old saying runs true - theres no such thing as a free lunch.

The photo in the subject of this topic has not been stolen. It is being linked from another site.
Ive found other incidences of this to photos on my server (nothing to do with the forum)
e.g. in another forum, someone was asking for the ID of a plant. Someone replied that it was a Rose. Another member gave a link to a photo on my website to say it was a Camellia - look, here it is again.
I didn't object to that.

In contrast- in the case in this topic, the whole website is a blatant ad warehouse - proceeds to the blogger - but the Lions share (you've guessed) to Google!

RE: (Paul)

...I am quite certain that you will get very few leads only grief.

It does give additional exposure (the correct type) and if it attracts potential users, then it is valuable.

Theres another consideration, perhaps more important to all members - persuading new customers to register on the forum.
Only a small percentage of users actually register on the forum.
For vibrancy, its great to see new members registering, and much more importantly, contributing.
Being open to the public, they can read the topics and that (I feel) would help sway their decision to register.

Every time a customer emails for support, I encourage them to join the forum. Few do.

This is now off topic, but best to continue - What are the other concerns about being open to the public?
An abnormal hit rate of Guests Printing this topic
I surfed for over two hours last night,trying to find a plausible reason.
I could not find one single similar item. If anyone else can, please let me know.

Usually, its pretty easy to find other forums complaining about abnormal activity.
I suspected it was Yahoo slurp (a Search Engine robot)
Search Engine robots are essential visitors to a forum, as they index the content and offer results (links) to web users when they type a query - thus driving traffic to your website.
Most search engine robots (e.g. from Google) are in and out like a flash, using little bandwidth.
Not Yahoo slurp. In my website statistics, it is the biggest consumer of bandwidth.
To put this into perspective, bear in mind that I provide free downloads of my software (in some cases 32MB per download) - and this Slurp thing absorbs even more that that! It is ridiculous, and website administrators are fuming - rightly so.
From what I read, it appears to download the entire content to their servers.
I was convinced that it was the one responsible for the Printing this topic listings.
I found the range of IP addresses they are using, but the ones I found did not match the IP addresses found (printing) on our forum.

An IP lookup of the random IP addresses showed that they belonged to Amazon and RIPE.
The lookup showed that the RIPE IP addresses had been Assigned to Users

The big question is - who is doing this and what is their purpose?
Is it a threat? If yes, what is the threat?

[roiphil]

i wouid be inclined to keep an eye on things, and if the case arises to only make the forum accessible to members then so be it, but i would keep a section open for guests where they can post any questions about the software etc,

In any forum you will have problems of people printing info out if they find it of interest, pictures as stated somewhere in this topic even if you copyright them there is a way around the copyright if you have the knowledge and tools to do the job

just keep an eye on things and if you feel the need to put it back to how it was previous then do it

my thoughts on the subject

[Palustris]

'Tis a problem for professional photographers who need to make money from their images. Personally, I am not in business, so if people want to use my pictures, then let them. If, however they are ripping off George, who as a business man is in the business of making a profit then that is different.  For the moment, I would do as Phil says and keep a watching brief.

[TXGulfCoast]

Is it possible to make photographs visible only to registered users, but keep the discussion text open to guests?

Monica

[roiphil]

Is it possible to make photographs visible only to registered users, but keep the discussion text open to guests?

Monica

Dont think so, any picture that i post on the forum i image source from my photo bucket, then you still have the problem of any text being printed off

[ideasguy]

RE: (George)

Is it a threat? If yes, what is the threat?

Any comments folk?

What are your concerns?
If you prefer, please send me an email.

RE: (Monica)

s it possible to make photographs visible only to registered users, but keep the discussion text open to guests?

It is possible to deny access to attachments.
However, that does not deny access to photos which are linked using HTML (using the Insert Hyperlink option)

[Lyn and Malcolm]

I think you just need to keep an eye on it George.

I know of two photos on our website that are linked to by other garden forums without permission, one Hungarian the othe Russian, if it got out of hand then it can cause a bandwith problem.

Malcolm

[NightHawk]

That's an excellent point you've raised there Malcolm - also known as Hotlinking which has the effect of stealing your bandwidth.

There is something you can do about that to stop unauthorised people from linking to your photos from outside web sites.  Check out this web site for further details - Stop Hotlinking and Bandwidth Theft.

Laurie.

[Djem]

As a new user I just want to put my 2 cents in, that if I hadn't had access to this forum without actually registering to read how other people were using the product, I would not have purchased it.  The thread on vegetable gardening was the clincher for me, after researching a half dozen other possibilities.

I don't like having to register to access forums unless I am absolutely sure I am going to access it more than once or twice, let me explain why.  I am a computer/internet geek, for work and my own hobbies I probably spend 14 hours a day in one form or another on the computer at least 4 to 5 days a week.  Every time I register on a forum to read more than a basic faq about a item, I gain about 100 more spam emails a day.  After a while you get tired of trying to remember what email you used to register so that you don't have to face spam wars every day.

I am not saying that the administrators here don't protect that information securely, I am just stating that other forum administrators are a lot more sloppy and are the basis of my reluctance.

Yes this forum serves as a very useful advertising tool, and while I fully understand and respect others concern over copy write and intellectual theft, it is a fact that if you post it on the internet, access will be gained to it.  If you want to keep it 'for your eyes or selective eyes' only, then take the conversations to email or snail mail.  If it is on a server with public access, it can be hacked.

My own website was originally set up to show my graphic art portfolio and hosted a few forums for various different hobbies, it didn't take me long to get sick and tired of the forum hacking/spam or seeing my work floating around as collages in other graphics without my permission.

In all honesty, if you want to get right down to the nitty gritty, considering the software product encourages the user to 'surf' the internet and collect and store data in clips, articles, links etc, we all might be the pot calling the kettle black here.  I am sure everyone that has collected all these clips and snips contacted the original authors for permission to do so?

Regards,

Julie

(and yes, I am usually the devils advocate in discussions... )

[ideasguy]

A very good case Julie, thank you for posting.

I can't speak for all website administrators, but I have absolutley no problem with a person placing a link to any of my websites for personal use only - be it for data or for photos. Doing so, by necessity you have to save the URL, so the website is honoured and the person who saves the links always knows you deserves the credit.
Its the case where someone else tries to pass off my/our data to others, without giving credits and worse still, implying that the work is theirs - for profit. That is unacceptable.

[newplantguy]

Julie makes some very good points, I have been thinking about public access and I think that it is needed, it does allow those who are interested in the software and those who may have some problems access to information without the need to register, I do not like to register on every Forum you have to remember which email and passwords you used.
I think the answer is that you should not post anything that you do not want others to print off or possibly use elsewhere.
It is very difficult to prevent the use of photos and information by those who will use it for their own use, here on this forum I think we are encouraging the sharing of information.
It is always good for others to post links to your site,  and photos etc, genuine use gives publicity and brings others to the site, these users will always give you a credit, those using it for their own benefit though should not be encouraged and I do not condone this in anyway.
I supply photos and information on a regular basis often this is free, I just ask for a credit, in most cases those wanting it for publication will not want to pay for it anyway, if they are writing an article for example they will say they are giving you free publicity.
I would monitor the use see how it goes.
Paul

[ideasguy]

Thanks Paul. Allowing access to guests helps any member who is promoting their own websites - business, charity or personal.

Going exclusive would stop the good guys enjoying our forum. I doubt very much if it would stop undesirable attention.

It is lamentable that the web and the tools we use to access documents and files facilitates the abuse of copyright material in this way.
Perhaps one day that will change.