Author Topic: Applying lime  (Read 8705 times)

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Online ideasguy

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Applying lime
« on: March 29, 2010, 10:47:51 AM »
In reading up on the theory behind Crop Rotation (the other currently active topic) I read that you should apply lime in the preceding winter for brassicas.

Now its into spring, is it too late to apply lime for my brassicas patch for this season?

Offline roiphil

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 01:33:49 PM »
according to my veg bible The Fruit And Vegetable Gardeners Handbook 1980, it says apply lime and manure at the rate of one barrow load per square yard several months before sowing, if the ground has not been manured apply a general fertilizer 3oz per sq yd just prior to sowing, so i would assume just add a general fertilizer

Offline bossgard

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 05:01:21 PM »

It's my thinking, that at this late point, since I will be doing Direct Sow within a couple of weeks of my vegatables, it is too late for me to lime my area.

In fact the whole topic of SOIL ENRICHMENT is a good Topic for open discussion. That is why I requested that it be a part of the
CROP ROTATION proagrm.

My confusion is how to enrich the soil, and still practice controlling disease and pest infestation. I think I would be making a big mistake if I was to use my 'home-made' compost which is not sterile. So I have placed nothing on my vegetable garden and have kept it barren from raked up leaves, discards from kitchen waste, or anything else.

I believe also, that I just add more weed seed to battle, by using non-sterile items. I've made attempts at 'cooking' my compost, but its difficult to come up with the right 'mix' to do it.

I'm going to stick to commerical fertilizers this year, and hope when we discuss the the forth-coming CROP ROTATION, that we can
come up with a good, safe over-all plan to use. And above all, still stay 'Green'.

- Toby



Online Palustris

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2010, 05:13:54 PM »
Chuck in my tuppenceworth. If you do not put diseased material on your compost heap, and the material actuallu decomposes to a reasonable quality, then you are not going to transfer pathogens on to your Veg patch. Unless your soil is well supplied with humous then eventually you are going to have problems with using just fertiliser to feed the plants. Farmers have found this out to their cost.

Online Palustris

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2010, 05:26:56 PM »
And with the Lime thing. Do not apply lime and manure at the same time. And if you forgot to lime for Brassicas then drop a little in the planting hole when transplanting them.

Offline bossgard

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2010, 05:39:59 PM »
Erik:

Your tip on applying the lime for the transplants, does that work also for Direct Sow,
meaning at the time of planting seed directly into the soil?

Thanks,

- Toby

Offline roiphil

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 08:31:36 PM »
re compost heaps i beleive that a compost heap actually builds up in temperature and you keep it covered which is meant to kill off weed seeds, but you are not meant to put any diseased stuff on a compost heap but you need 2 compost heaps on the go to do this as you would be filling one and using the other

personaly i too would not be inclined to use man made fertilsers if you have planned your veg patch 4 year rotation you can use farm yard manure and lime if you take this basic four year rotation http://www.allotment.org.uk/vegetable/crop-rotation/four-year-crop-rotation.php

Toby dont know on your direct sowing and lime i would be inclined to go on the side of caution and not lime, as i dont know if the lime would have any side effects on the seedlings

Because this is my first year aswell i shall be following a 4 year crop rotation as the above link, but not liming to start with as i reckon that chance has gone for the plants that may require lime, but on the plus side my plot is new to veg so i should not have any problems with the build up of diseases etc this is what i will be doing basically from now
Year 1   
Plot 1  Potatoes followed by lime 
Plot 2  Legumes (Beans) followed by additional lime 
Plot 3  Brassicas
Plot 4  Onions & Roots followed by manure

Online Palustris

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 08:45:51 PM »
Unless your soil is acidic then you do not really need to lime for most vegtables. And if your brassicas look a little chlorotic then you could always water them with lime water.

Offline diegartenfrau

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2010, 08:54:49 PM »
Steve Solomons Organic Fertilizer recipe in his Book 'Growing Vegetables West of the Cascades' adds lime to the fertilizer mix since PNW soils get depleted from them. I think if you add a small amount a couple weeks before and scratch it in good, it should not be a problem, since every time I fertilize I add small amounts of both kinds of lime with the fertilizer mix I use.
I read online to add some manure a couple weeks before planting your Cauliflower, since they need a lot of Nitrogen. Since I have my chickens providing me daily with fresh manure, I just added a small bucket full just to the area where they will go in 4 weeks ago, thinking it needs to loose some of its potency before I add my seedlings there.

Cauliflower and Broccoli I have not been as successful in growing in the PNW. I heard the Oregon soil is often lacking of Boron and this seems to be an important nutrient for Brassicas.
 I haven't quit trying to grow these crops yet ;) One of those days I will harvest a perfectly shaped Cauliflower and Broccoli ;D

With cover crop rotation I think in a climate with a long growing season that can get a bit tricky since one has always something in production. I have not done cover crop cover but are planning to. I am trying to keep one of my beds empty each season to cover with cover crops, since I have 12 beds I think I should manage that. With having 12 beds I should be able to grow things over the winter and have a few beds with cover crops.
Aside too many of my seedlings survive and I can't find enough people to pass them out to. I have a hard time just throwing perfectly grown seedlings into the chicken run or compost heap and try to squeeze them in the garden, which then they would occupy my empty bed>lol<

Here is some of the info for Cauliflower in the PNW I collected from different web site, some of it came from the Oregon State University Agricultural Commercial Vegetable growing site and from their Extension site, which has a lot of good info
http://nwrec.hort.oregonstate.edu/vegindex.html


>>Cauliflower
LIGHT: Full Sun
 is a vegetable which can be produced abundantly from April until early December in the maritime Northwest. Rich, humusy soil is essential, as cauliflowers tend to have weak root systems. Heavy soils must be especially well amended with organic matter. With cauliflower only continuous rapid growth will produce high quality heads, so ideal soil conditions should be created and fertilizer used. One-quarter to 1/2 cup of complete organic fertilizer worked into the soil immediately below the plant will produce good results if the soil is light enough to permit good root development. A high soil pH of 6.5 - 7.5 is also important for best development.

Cauliflower prefers deep, humus-rich soil with a good supply of water and high humidity. Prepare your soil by working into it organic matter such as compost, bark, wood ashes, and manure. Barnyard manures should be aged before adding to the garden. Rabbit and chicken manures are good ones to use. Cow manure is good but just don't overdo it, as the manure may cause a buildup of salt in the soil. If your soil is acidic, it should be sweetened up by adding lime. Insert the transplants into the garden, spacing them 18 to 24 inches apart in rows 2 to 3 feet apart. Plant only as deeply as the transplants are as they are removed from their containers. If you overcrowd cauliflower, they may not be able to reach their full potential. Provide two or three plants for each family member.
Even though the soil is fertile it must receive a good application of a commercial fertilizer, such as 5-10-10. Broadcast at least 2000 pounds per acre, or 5 pounds for each 100 square feet, and work into the soil about 1 week before the plants are set. This fertilizer should contain some of the minor elements, particularly boron and magnesium. If it does not it would be wise to purchase a small amount of a special minor element mixture and add to your fertilizer according to directions on the container.
As you plant, put about a cup of root stimulator mixture into each hole along with a teaspoon of bonemeal to get the plants off to a robust start with strong roots and stems. Mulch each plant with hay to prevent soil erosion and to add nutrients to the soil as it decomposes.

Cauliflower is a cool season crop, closely related to broccoli, cabbage, kale, turnips and mustard. It is more exacting in its climatic requirements than most other crops in this family. It grows best in a comparatively cool temperature with a moist atmosphere.

The plants should be watered when transplanted to prevent wilting. Severe shock to plants at transplanting time often causes poor head development. Watering the plants with a starter solution is helpful. Make a starter solution by adding one cup of 5-10-10 fertilizer to 12 quarts of water. Stir and then let set for a few hours. Use one cup of this solution around the roots when a plant is set out.
Proper ventilation is important and can be maintained by raising the sash or plastic covering during the hottest portion of the day. Use a soluble fertilizer, as water and fertilizer are required frequently. When the seed is planted in beds, it requires about 8 to 10 weeks from seed to plants for the spring crop and about 4 to 5 weeks for the fall crop. Reduce the amount of water to the plants, or gradually decrease the temperature in the hotbed to harden off or toughen the plants prior to transplanting.

Direct seeding is possible, especially for the fall crop. Transplants can be produced in about six to eight weeks for the spring and in about five to six weeks for the fall crop. When growing transplants in the spring, give them sufficient cold to harden off, but protect them from temperatures below freezing. Cauliflower is extremely sensitive to temperatures that are either too hot or too cold.

Fertilizer
-- Soils should be tested to determine lime and fertilizer needs. Cauliflower requires a rich soil. In absence of a soil test, a general recommendation would be 80 lbs of nitrogen, 80 lbs P2O2, and 80 to 100 K2O plus 15 to 20 lb of borax per acre. Without boron, hollow stems with internal brown discoloration can result. This fertilizer should be broadcasted or mixed into the row. Sidedress 4 weeks after transplanting, with 30 lb of nitrogen. On sandy soil an additional sidedressing may be necessary following excess rain. Home gardeners should mix 2 level Tbsp of borax with 5 qt of fertilizer and apply this to 100 ft of row. Mix the fertilizer thoroughly with the soil.
Cauliflower is a heavy feeder. If a soil test has not been taken, a general fertilizer recommendation would be to apply 5-10-10 at 3 pounds per 100 square feet before planting. Sidedress in about three to four weeks after transplanting when the plants have become established, with ammonium nitrate at 1 pound per hundred feet of row or calcium nitrate at 2 pounds per 100 feet of row. Nitrogen is important for this crop to produce a high-quality product.
An additional side dressing of a nitrogen fertilizer when the plants are well established may be desirable.

Cauliflower plants can be heavy feeders. Apply 1 to 2 pounds of an all-purpose fertilizer (20-20-20 per 100 feet of row). Side dress 3 weeks later with ammonium sulphate at rate of 1/2 cup per 10 feet of row.

Nitrating

For best development cauliflower must have a large amount of available nitrogen. This is best supplied by making at least three side-dressings with nitrate of soda. Make the first application after the plants have been in the field about 3 weeks and then two more applications 2 weeks apart. Each application should be one tablespoon per plant, one pound for 150 feet of row, or 200 pounds per acre. Make the application on top of the ground out about 3 inches from the plant. A circle around each plant is a good method if only a few plants are grown in the home garden.

If a nitrogen fertilizer is not available, work a quart of fresh chicken manure into the soil around each plant 3 weeks after setting out the plants.

Cauliflower requires high magnesium levels and shows deficiency symptoms readily when soils are too acid or the element is in short supply. In sandy loams of the Coastal Plain, magnesium at the rate of 100 lb of MgO2 per acre may be beneficial. Molybdenum deficiency which produces "whiptailing" of the leaves is also prevalent on very acid soils.
Cauliflower needs rich soil and adequate moisture for peak production. Feed them with a nitrogen-rich fertilizer every two or three weeks until the point of production. Then feed them with a good water-soluble fertilizer. Keep the soil moist. Replace mulch as it deteriorates and pull weeds away from the plants.

Planting -- Plant on 8- to 10-inch ridged rows 36 to 38 inches apart and 15 to 20 inches between plants in the row. To insure proper contact of soil with the roots, water with 5 lb of soluble high phosphate fertilizer per 100 gal of water applied at one half pint to each transplant. For fall crops, cauliflower can be planted by seeding directly in the field and thinned to the desired in-row spacing when the plants have 3 to 4 true leaves.


Overwintering Cauliflower

These are the easiest class of cauliflowers to grow. Overwintering types are bred to form very well-wrapped heads that are protected from the cold and are unsurpassed in uniformity. Perhaps the most amazing aspect of these specimens is the fact that they are bred to mature at specific spring dates. These varieties should be sown between July 1st and August 1st. If transplanting, it is best done by the end of the first week in September. Small or no heads are usually the result of planting too late or low soil fertility. Non-headed plants will grow into monstrous plants that will usually form exhibition size heads the following spring.

Start overwintering cauliflower during early July to early August, but do not fertilize Walcherin types heavily until spring regrowth begins, when they should be fertilized periodically so as to make a large plant by April. In spring, one teaspoonful of bloodmeal every 3 weeks sprinkled about the base of the plant will induce maximum growth.





Offline bossgard

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 10:17:46 PM »
OK, it looks like everybody is coming up with a different 4-year Crop Rotation plan, including the Soil Enrichment plan,
as written by their 'leading authority'.

I'm willing to experiment --

I do an application of Dolomite Lime on my lawn area on an annual basis in the springtime, to try to control the moss and
mushrooms. I have never done a soil test, but understand a free one is available by mail from (WSU) Washington State University Extention Service, which I understand also has something to do with the Master Gardeners (MG). Maybe Katie can clue me in.

There is also Agricultural Lime and Limestone, besides the Dolomite available. Which one do I buy this weekend, from the
Garden Center for my vegetable garden? I assume that each kind is different.

Nowadays, you don't know if the sales people really know!! The directions on the package (bag), will probably tell me.

- Toby

Offline diegartenfrau

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2010, 01:35:58 AM »
@Toby: Steve Solomon says in his book to use both kind of lime because the rains in the West side of the cascades, has leached the soil in our region for millenias of the nutrients calcium, magnesium and phosphorous. Also our soils with a few exceptions are derived from rocks, we have very poor soil out here. The soils here provide low quality hay, with low nutrition so dairy farms have to truck in a lot of hay from the eastern part of Oregon. The good thing is the rain leaches the soil pretty uniform because coming pretty much all from rock unlike in the East Coast where there are many different kind of soils and so no matter where you live in the West side of the Cascades replenishing the soil is the same formula.
The same would apply to your region Toby.

He says that because calcium, magnesium and phosphorous are leached in high quantities it makes the Potassium (K)  level too high. so if you use a common fertilizer you are adding too much of this nutrient. Too high level of Potassium lowers the nutritional value, including protein and vitamins. That is why the hay is low quality but the same can apply to your vegetables, wheat.....
He even says it lowers the quality of your compost. Coupled with our cool summers it also does not compost quickly enough so our compost is low in nitrogen which gets produced in hot, quick compost.

So to get high nutritious vegetables we need to avoid adding more then the minimum amount of potassium. One thing overabundance of potassium does, it bulks vegetables up, increase crop value and weight that's why they tell farmers to add lots of potassium to their fields. But it comes to the expense of nutritional value. Since the farmer does not get paid for nutrition but for bulk........it's different for us vegetable gardeners.
So our soil is deficient in everything but potassium. two of the nutrients we are really short of are  calcium and magnesium ->Lime<-  so fixing that deficiency is the most useful because doing that, allows the other nutrients to be available to the plants.
Agricultural Lime is calcium carbonate. Dolomite Lime is about 1/2 calcium carbonate and half magnesium carbonate.
If you mix together more of less equal parts of the two kinds of lime you get the right proportion for the calcium to magnesium.

He suggests if you start a brand new garden or one which never has been limed you should spread an equal mix of the two limes at a combined rate of 50 lbs per 1000 sqft (1 ton per acre). If you use his fertilizer formula as an ongoing amendment this one time, heavy application should suffice for as long you garden at that site.
He says aside a few islands off the mainland of British Columbia and down Klamath Mountains in Oregon, 98% of gardeners in the maritime NW are helped by this formula.
I have been using his formula for a few years and I think it is making a great difference.
If you are gardening in this area Maritime PNW, I highly recommend his book. It might be not the easiest read, I have to admit he could be a better writer, (but maybe it is just me, I just prefer the facts instead of story time) but his book has great information for us PNWesterners.
Here quickly his fertilizer recipe
4 parts seed meal (Cottonseed, canola meal, linseed, soybean meal.....)
1/2 part lime (equal mix of agricultural and dolomite)
1/2 part phosphate rock or bone meal (steamed or raw)
1/2 part kelp meal (any kind of pure seaweed meal from anywhere)


you could also use two or three parts fish meal (it has more NPK then seed meal) instead of the 4 parts seed meal, but it is more expensive that way

he recommends to use as much of that fertilizer as the plants will respond too,
So when they need nutrients to support their vegetative growth and grow fast feed them more, when they cannot grow fast - give them little.
Since the fertilizer releases its nutrients slower then chemical ones, for early spring sowings when then ground is still cold use a bit more then you might think necessary.
Since he says he does not know how fertile our gardens are he recommends about 1/4 to 1/2 cup per plant, all depends on your situation.
for raised Beds he says to rake in 1-2 gallons of his fertilizer spread atop each 100 sqft of growing area before sowing or planting.
This amount is supposed to be sufficient for adequate background nutrition for all vegetables and should be enough by itself for less demanding species, like Carrots.
It should feed your seedlings or transplants for up to 3 months, but this depends on the species your are growing and if they are doing lots of growing, feed them a bit more by side dressing. for a 4 foot wide raised bed side dress a small handful between each pair of 4 foot long rows. High feeders might need a side dressing every 4 weeks or 6 weeks.

I keep my ingredients in plastic trash cans and periodically mix a small bucket. Since it is in parts you can mix as much as you like and it won't spoil as long you keep it dry.



Offline bossgard

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Re: Applying lime
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2010, 05:35:13 PM »
Here?s the local approach, for the Pacific Northwest, State of Washington, US,
for City of Seattle, Courtesy Seattle Times Newspaper, March 25, 2010:

PLANT COOL-SEASON VEGGIES NOW
Ciscoe Morris
Special to the Times
   Peas, Kohlrabi, European and Asian greens, carrots, spinach and onion sets can all
be set directly sowed into the garden any time the soil is workable in spring.
   Each vegetable has a key requirement that must be satisfied to produce productive
crops.
   Peas and Kohlrabi require constant moisture (work in lots of compost for moisture
retention) and a balanced fertilizer with higher amounts of phosphorus and nitrogen.
   Greens also need constant moisture but require fertilizers higher in nitrogen than
in phosphorus to encourage leaf growth rather than flowering.
   Spinach needs uniformly moist soil that is rich in nitrogen to prevent bolting.
Spinach often fails in our acid Northwest soil because it requires a more alkaline soil
(a pH between 6.5 and 7.5). If your spinach doesn?t do well this spring, work dolomite
lime into the soil next fall to give it time to break down before you plant your spinach
next year.
   Plant all your cool season veggies now, and you?ll be eating fresh vegetables
and greens right out of the garden in no time.

(Personal note from Toby: Mr. Ed Hume, also a local Gardening advisor, I use as my
first authority for this locality, and was the former ?boss? of  Ciscoe Morris. When I
need help I turn to them.)